{"id":5077,"date":"2017-05-24T13:18:04","date_gmt":"2017-05-24T13:18:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/jairekrobbins.com\/?p=5077"},"modified":"2018-12-03T16:13:24","modified_gmt":"2018-12-03T16:13:24","slug":"interview-negotiation-skills-from-former-fbi-agent-chris-voss","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/jairekrobbins.com\/interview-negotiation-skills-from-former-fbi-agent-chris-voss\/","title":{"rendered":"Interview: Negotiation Skills From Former FBI Agent Chris Voss"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p class=\"style-scope bard-text-block\"><a href=\"https:\/\/jairekrobbins.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017\/05\/18268293_10155351144256385_5859979901457851472_n.jpg\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone wp-image-5082 size-large\" src=\"https:\/\/jairekrobbins.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2017\/05\/18268293_10155351144256385_5859979901457851472_n-300x300.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"300\" height=\"300\" \/><\/a><\/p>\n<p class=\"style-scope bard-text-block\">Hello!<\/p>\n<p class=\"style-scope bard-text-block\">It&#8217;s my birthday week and I just wanted to take a moment to express my sincerest gratitude for all your love and support throughout the years. <strong>To be able to live another year to serve you in helping you become the happiest, healthiest and most fulfilled version of yourself is a dream come true.<\/strong> I live my passion every single day and I couldn&#8217;t do it without the support of you. <strong>Thank you.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"style-scope bard-text-block\">Thank you for trusting me, believing in me, and <strong>most importantly thank you for believing in yourself.<\/strong> It warms my heart to see you showing up and choosing to become the best version of yourself each and every week. Whether it&#8217;s reading our weekly emails, connecting with us on FB live, or sharing the tools we serve up for you each day,<strong> I see you and I applaud you for dedicating yourself to excellence<\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p class=\"style-scope bard-text-block\"><strong>Thank you, thank you, thank you.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p class=\"style-scope bard-text-block\">To your success,<\/p>\n<p class=\"style-scope bard-text-block\">Jairek Robbins<\/p>\n<h2 class=\"bard-text-block style-scope\" style=\"text-align: center;\"><\/h2>\n<h2 class=\"bard-text-block style-scope\" style=\"text-align: center;\"><\/h2>\n<h2 class=\"bard-text-block style-scope\" style=\"text-align: center;\"><strong>Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It<\/strong><\/h2>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p class=\"style-scope bard-text-block\">Want to better negotiate deals, salaries, partnerships?<strong> Negotiation is a highly valuable life skill.<\/strong> Grab a pen and paper because today&#8217;s JRCtv is with former FBI hostage negotiator Chris Voss and he&#8217;s going to give you tips on how to negotiate like your life depends on it because it does.<\/p>\n<p class=\"style-scope bard-text-block\">Grab a pen and paper because today&#8217;s JRCtv is with former FBI hostage negotiator Chris Voss and <strong>he&#8217;s going to give you tips on how to negotiate like your life depends on it because it does.<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<div style=\"position: relative; height: 0; padding-bottom: 56.25%;\"><iframe loading=\"lazy\" style=\"position: absolute; width: 100%; height: 100%; left: 0;\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/5gnLafz3jpM?ecver=2\" width=\"540\" height=\"304\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/div>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" src=\"https:\/\/www.podbean.com\/media\/player\/wcmui-6b22d7?from=yiiadmin&amp;skin=2&amp;share=1&amp;fonts=Helvetica&amp;auto=0&amp;download=0\" width=\"100%\" height=\"100\" frameborder=\"0\" scrolling=\"no\" data-name=\"pb-iframe-player\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/learnitliveitgiveit.podbean.com\/mf\/play\/kabvbt\/JRCtv-_Interview_with_Chris_Voss.mp3\">Download this episode (right click and save)<\/a><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><strong>Prefer to read? No Problem. Check out this week&#8217;s episode transcription here:<\/strong><\/p>\n<h2><\/h2>\n<p>Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of JRCtv.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>If you\u2019re listening to the podcast or watching this video, Hello.\u00a0 We have a very special guest joining us, I just finished listening to his book which is awesome, if you\u2019re watching it\u2019s called <strong><a href=\"http:\/\/amzn.to\/2qSzYUp\">NEVER SPLIT THE DIFFERENCE<\/a><\/strong>, you can see it right over his shoulders there which is awesome, this is <strong>Mr. Chris Voss, he\u2019s the CEO and founder <\/strong>of The Black Swan LTD Group or<strong> The Black Swan Group<\/strong> is the better way to say it.\u00a0 His 24 years experience in the FBI and was former FBI lead international kidnapping negotiator, he\u2019s a speaker which I\u2019ll tell you where we first run into each other as well as adjunct professor and consultant.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>JR: I believe you\u2019re a professor at Harvard and also USC?<\/p>\n<p>CV: \u201cWell I did, Harvard several years ago but these days, USC University of Southern California for all you people in the Southeast and Georgetown University in Washington, DC.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>JR: \u201cWonderful! Well thank you for joining us and thank you for sharing some of your wisdom and experience with everyone today in advance.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>CV: \u201cHey man, I am flattered, I am honored to be on with you. It\u2019s very cool, I am glad we cross paths again.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>JR: \u201cYeah I am excited, speaking of which the first time we cross paths, I believe was in Philly.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>CV: \u201cIt was in Philly, yeah in an event Carolyn put on.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>JR: \u201cYeah and we were both speaking there and we had I think it was a 4-hour conversation that night, hanging out, talking with everybody.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>CV: \u201cyeah it was a lot of fun.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>JR: \u201cI don\u2019t know and I apologize, I don\u2019t know why it took me so long to read your book.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>CV: \u201cIt took me a while to get the book out so that\u2019s okay.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>JR: \u201cFair enough, fair enough I finally got my hands on it, I went through the whole book, and I mean I wish I can just hit instant download and put this in everybody\u2019s playbook except for the people we negotiate with because obviously, it\u2019s a little better for us to know it than them.\u00a0 About one thing you said that\u2019s really interesting is in the negotiation itself, we\u2019ll get to some tactics\u00a0 but I wanna share about you first, but in the negotiation itself it\u2019s not you versus them as much as it\u2019s you both trying to solve the problem at hand and I think a lot of people including myself when stuff gets tense when stuff gets interesting a lot of times that initial you know adversary thought process comes out. So I want to talk about that maybe towards the end we\u2019ll talk about how to make that adjustment for people but for right now, I\u2019d love to just tell about you, like how did you get into this for those listening and watching.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>CV: \u201cYeah you know just one thing after another out of left field. Which I think you know everybody\u2019s life as it takes its path. I never planned of being an FBI agent probably didn\u2019t even think about it until about 10 or 11 months before I was looking at to become an FBI agent and then like I was a SWAT guy, you know before I went to the FBI I was a police officer at Kansas City Missouri Police Department. Very good police department, wonderful charming, wonderful city.\u00a0 And then the FBI thing comes up, I head in that direction, I was on a SWAT team, to me some of the best things that have happened to me in my life as a result of something it would be perceived as negative and so I reinjured my knee.\u00a0 I tore ligaments in my knee because when I was in college I fancied myself as sort of the Caucasian Bruce Lee\u00a0 (laughs). I wanted to be in the martial arts and I thought that would help me with the police department, blew the knee out. Blew it out again trying out for the\u00a0 FBI\u2019s hostage rescue team, the FBI\u2019s version of the navy seal. A bunch of the HRT guys are former seals, former delta guys and then before I wanted to completely destroy my knee I started looking at something else within crisis response, FBI and hostage negotiator and I thought, how hard can it be? (laughs)<\/p>\n<p>JR: (laughs) \u201cinteresting mindset to come in with.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>CV: \u201c I can talk to terrorist, I mean I really thought I can do that and initially they wouldn\u2019t let me in.\u00a0 Woman running the team in New York, Amy Bondoro she was like, she kinda look down her nose at me because I didn\u2019t have any qualifications other than wanting to get after which you know anything in life is ingenuity, initiative is one of the biggest things and so she kinda tested me I didn\u2019t realize it was a test at that time, she gave me a test to go out and do..<\/p>\n<p>JR: Was that the lady who had you join the crisis hotline?<\/p>\n<p>CV: \u201cYeah, I go volunteer on the hotline, you know and so then, the process of doing that, trying to get, I got on a team, we had a kidnapping that didn\u2019t turn out the way we expect it to internationally, you know I\u2019m gonna talk about it in the book and then had figuratively get better and that\u2019s when I ended up collaborating with the guys at Harvard.\u00a0 It were lot of fun, I really enjoyed working with those guys, Bob Manoukian, Shiela Heen, Doug Stone, you know just a whole crew of really smart people group up there and they said , hey you know you\u2019re doing the same stuff as we are you just do it with different\u00a0 stakes , you know it kinda open the door to business stuff and you know, Never Split the Difference, you know the book came out last May and if I can add, my co-writer Tahl Raz, freaking genius like anybody out there read anything Tahl Raz has written, if you\u2019re interested in reading something about business, he\u2019s also a co-author of another book Never Eat Alone which is also one the best networking books ever written.<\/p>\n<p>JR: \u201cKeith Rosen, he\u2019s been a guest on the show as well, also people love him.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>CV : Keith is also phenomenal, and Tahl collaborated on Keith\u2019s book, yeah I mean read anything Tahl\u2019s written, it\u2019s good stuff.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>JR: \u201cFair and cool, I have to look \u2018em up. Keith\u2019s business books.\u00a0 So you went through this journey and there were different things you talked about in the book, that I mean literally your heart skips a beat every time you don\u2019t know every time it\u2019s like a page turner, what happened? Did he get him did he not? Did they take him out? And I think it\u2019s always interesting and fun that you know a lot of conversation start with \u201c3 mins, give me a car or the person dies\u201d (laughs) and for most people if you\u2019re watching, you\u2019re a business owner , a coach or someone who a lot of times it\u2019s not a life or death on the line as much as it\u2019s an opportunity to close some type of gap though and that continuously overtime can lead up to the life or death of your company if you think of it that way coz really truly if you overpay or undercharge too many times in a\u00a0 row you\u2019ll end up , your margin\u2019s gone and if your margin\u2019s gone and then you go into the red now you had a business and that stat show\u00a0 that 98% of businesses fail within 10 years , 95% fail within the first 5 years so this literally could be\u00a0 a life of death topic for lot of small business owners if you\u2019re in that first five-year or ten-year period of your business and so looking at it with that perspective maybe, I\u2019d love to share this a couple of tips obviously they\u2019re going to grab the book to deepen this concept but I\u2019d love to share a few\u00a0 tips for people watching , what some things, there might be an easy, applicable , easy something to apply almost immediately that if they watch this they took it away let me see if this really works, like I know he saved people\u2019s lives, I know he\u2019s rescued hostages and some have gone , one or two have gone wrong but most have gone in the right direction and like you said never split the difference and negotiate like your life depends on it because in this cases people\u2019s lives do depend on it, so if they\u2019re gonna take something with that kind of urgency into a business negotiation later this afternoon, what\u2019s a couple of tips you might give them of something they could try immediately just to see that it works before they could have the chance to go to the book and really read all the meat in there?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>CV:\u00a0 \u201cWell you know first one is starting point is there\u2019s great power in deference. So you take a deferential approach and then gives you license to set a lot of more things and the book starts with a story of the best way to say no!\u00a0 and people either get this right away and start making money out of it immediately or it scares them. But the first and best way to say no in a deferential tone of voice is; \u2018How am I supposed to do that and that?\u2019 \u00a0is, I got examples for the other side immediately cutting their price by half from a woman who is negotiating with a 13 yr old son who wanted her to buy him a video game and she said to her kid, \u201cHow am I supposed to do that?\u201d and he immediately offered to pay for half (laughs) and then I got another colleague here in town business person negotiating with a\u00a0 vendor over contract and he said to the guy \u201cHow am I supposed to do that?\u201d and the vendor immediately cut his price by half , so I mean even that in it of itself you know and some people like \u201cAh, I can\u2019t say that, what if they come back, you have to, now I\u2019m in trouble\u201d\u00a0 and you know my advice to them is \u201cAlright so, give it a try\u201d.\u00a0 Number 1, we actually coach people to say how I am supposed to do that continuously at least two or three times until the other side finally does say \u201cYou know because you have to\u201d.\u00a0 Because actually, your job as a business person is to be able to find out how much is on the table and when the other side says coz you have to you now have done your job on behalf of yourself, on behalf of your company.\u00a0 You push the other side to the limit find out everything is on the table and you\u2019re still talking. When somebody says to you, because you have to, you still engage into conversation, it\u2019s not over. They didn\u2019t slam their hands down, jump up and walk away, and didn\u2019t call you names and didn\u2019t threaten to report you to the better business bureau, they\u2019ve said, hey look you pushed me to my limit and I\u2019m still talking. I still wanna make this deal but you know now we\u2019re gonna make the deal. Which is your job as a business person, so you know that little thing right there, that little one more people have instantly made more deals just with that phrase.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>JR:\u00a0 \u201cAnd so, here\u2019s this interesting question coz I\u2019ve been playing this myself, that would be on the point where someone\u2019s purchasing from you and they\u2019re trying to bid you down, correct?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>CV:\u00a0 \u201cWell in any time that you have to say no , or that you need to , you need to buy yourself some time it\u2019s actually specifically designed thing, it\u2019s also triggers something we called forced empathy and it\u2019s the best way to get the other side take a look at you, to take a fair look at your position\u00a0 and before they respond, it\u2019s a stop and think moment for the other side. It triggers something that Danny Conoman, Nobel Prize-winning behavioral economist refers to slow thinking which is deep thinking, Conoman wrote a great book called, Thinking Fast and Slow . And his stuff is a foundation that explains a lot of what makes a hostage negotiation work business and personal life cause\u00a0Conoman talked and goes into great depth about how we react in fact in a real world as opposed to theoretically you know this intellectual mythology which you know doesn\u2019t exist.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>JR: \u201cRight, the staircase thoughts came afterward, you know I should have said this!, I should have said that!, I would have done this! and that\u2019s not reality of what actually happened (laughs)\u201d<\/p>\n<p>CV: (laughs) \u201cYeah sometimes I wish I was as brilliant as I thought I was.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>JR: &#8220;Yeah when you\u2019re walking away , 10 mins later you\u2019re like ahhh all the good thoughts\u00a0 rain in, but there\u2019s things that you\u2019re saying have to happen in the moment, so here\u2019s my question, anytime you have to say no\u00a0 that would help, and this is something that just got me thinking as I was reading through the book , I was reading all this different pieces from ways you can adjust you know yourself, ways you can better understand the person you\u2019re communicating with , there\u2019s so many golden nuggets and great tips on this pages.&#8221;<\/p>\n<p>CV: \u201cThank you<\/p>\n<p>JR: &#8220;I hope you don\u2019t mind me bragging about how awesome the book is , really is..&#8221;<\/p>\n<p>CV: No, no, go on go on<\/p>\n<p>JR: \u201cStop, stop go go . It was interesting, one thing that sit on my head and I love your insight what if you\u2019re trying to nudge the person higher, so and I was trying to figure out which technique might work in that case where let\u2019s say, someone tries to bid us down so we say \u201c oh that product or that service \u00a0let\u2019s just use round numbers is $10,000 and they say the best I can do is five, so would you start on that same price ? So how am I supposed to do that?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>CV: &#8220;Yeah, how am I supposed to do that? You know there\u2019s three or four different ways to approach that , you know another thing you could say to somebody is you know one of the skills we took to hostage negotiations we use this as probably the most powerful one is this tool we call the label , you know hostage negotiations was called the motion labels so the other thing I might wanna say to someone is it \u201cYou know it sounds like the values is not there for you.\u201d Now that\u2019s actually a specifically designed price and it\u2019s not what some people are taught to say where they go like \u201cwhat I\u2019m hearing is\u201d because if I say to you it sounds like or seems like or it looks like, the design of that is actually it hits the portion of your brain that causes you to make an internal inquiry where the prefrontal cortex or the CEO of your brain sort of checks with the rest of the brain and says, \u201chmmmm\u201d.\u00a0 It causes you to contemplate this in a very specific way, creates this interaction in the different components of your brain where you think about it you actually react in a way that I know in advance you\u2019re going to react to and then you come back with an answer that\u2019s much more than yes or no because no negotiation is the proper answer is never a yes or no, it\u2019s no and or yes and and you need everything else that comes back in the and.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>JR: \u201cThat\u2019s right.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>CV: &#8220;Most people, thank you very much, most people when they say the price is the problem, it\u2019s not really the money, it\u2019s what they\u2019re getting for the money and they will give you all the money that you needed, if they\u2019re getting what they needed out of the deal.\u00a0 So if they express to you because they don\u2019t know any better the price is too high and it\u2019s not the price but it\u2019s the package you\u2019re not gonna solve the problem by cutting the price.\u00a0 You may actually make things worse. And you need to get when you say \u201cIt sounds like the value is not there for you.\u201d\u00a0 that immediately turns the conversation over the value and it makes him think alright, so what is the value here for me and it pivots now into something other than price wherein you find out how to fix the problem.&#8221;<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>JR: \u201cAhh so all of a sudden they\u2019ll open dialogue and ideally, they\u2019ll start sharing with you and either go, oh no no no its not that, it\u2019s not that. Which means they do see the value and there are some other reasons why they\u2019re saying thisA and then you can figure out what the real reason is or they might go, you know, you\u2019re right and I\u2019m guessing a follow up might be we\u2019ll what\u2019s missing or what value\u00a0 needs to be there to be that justified price for what we charge and at that point, either one way you\u2019re gonna learn why they \u2018re really saying no to that or two you\u2019re gonna learn what else you need to add to deal with to get it to that price where they easily go that\u2019s totally worth it, let\u2019s do it.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>CV: &#8220;Right, right right exactly and you know there are entrepreneurs , business person\u2019s dilemma , the sales person\u2019s dilemma is everybody\u2019s first move is to cut the price and everybody also knows that it\u2019s probably not price that\u2019s the problem you know the hard part is how do you pivot away from price and get right into what exactly is the problem and so one of the ways is \u2026first way is, of course, say, \u201chow am I supposed to do that ?\u201d Which Is really really a nice way to straight reject what they said and make them rethink it. But the flip side, \u201cYou know it sounds like the value is just not there to you.\u201d Then immediately takes you into areas that would probably gonna solve the problem, actually much more quickly. Also, this is what we could like to say delay or save time. This is a great time saver to hack into forwarding the negotiations.<\/p>\n<p>JR: \u201cOkay, so how am I supposed to do that? And then sounds like the value isn\u2019t there for you.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>CV: \u201cRight.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>JR: \u201cAnd what\u2019s interesting twice that you\u2019ve done that I\u2019ve been noticing for people because I just read the book I know what to look for or at least some of the things , is you did two things that I think were important you pointed out in the book. One: Slow down! So often I know this myself, our heart rate gets going, we get excited we get nervous palms, we start seeing the finish line and so we start talking really fast and getting excited, oh totally, we can do that for you and according to the book that\u2019s\u00a0 not helping.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>CV: \u201cNo, first thing is because one is such time pressure we think we got to speed up in order to solve it and the exact opposite is true.\u00a0 I had a judge in front of the trial in New York and had this great phrase, we\u2019re gonna delay things in order to save time. You know so you actually get into the negotiation process faster because you get off the gerbil wheel, you know people go faster but they\u2019re on the gerbil wheel with repetitive conversations and they don\u2019t understand that if they slow down they get fewer conversations and in it entirety save a lot of time. So slowing down actually does accelerate the process you make fewer mistakes to don\u2019t renegotiate you don\u2019t have as many misunderstandings and you know misunderstandings or false agreements, which are really gerbil wheel of business as well as eats up our time, so it\u2019s understanding actually have move much more quickly by taking a more deliberative approach and having fewer conversations.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>JR: \u201cVery nice and then the other thing is watching the physiology and tonality of what\u2019s going on and then one thing you said that\u2019s interesting, a lot of business today is done over the phone of each other or via email which email is probably the fastest way of being misunderstood because they\u2019re reading in their own voice, hearing their own inflection of what they think you\u2019re saying versus actually hearing you.\u00a0 And you pointed out the value of actually being able to see the person and be next to the person something you know I think I\u2019ve talked about from time to time with everyone who\u2019s watching and listening which is the concept of being able to see the congruence or incongruence within the other person and have value that can be to the actual process of negotiation and communicating.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>CV: \u201cRight, right and the incongruence is a lot of, there are numbers that are thrown out you know people talk a popular ratio of 7\/38\/55\u00a0 and 7% are your communication is words. And you know people get caught up in whether or not those numbers are accurate and the issue is where do you use exactly a moment ago, it doesn\u2019t matter what the ratio is what matters is whether things are incongruent you know when the tone of voice doesn\u2019t line up with the words.\u00a0 I don\u2019t care if it\u2019s 20\/80\u00a0 I don\u2019t care if it\u2019s 50\/50, if my words and my tone don\u2019t line up we have an issue here and you\u2019re actually communicating issue to me, you know I got a colleague, extremely successful guy\u00a0 got fired of lack of understanding of incongruence he\u2019s talking to a billionaire investor in a company and the billionaire investor has got a bad idea and in discussing it on the phone, you know my friend, my colleague says \u201c o&#8212;k\u2014ay\u201d now he\u2019s communicating real hesitancy with his tones, so his tones and his words\u00a0 are not exactly lining up the billionaire investor hears the word \u201cokay\u201d and construes that as an agreement\u00a0 and later accuses him of lying. So I don\u2019t care what the ratios are, somebody, we desperately want to hear yes everybody is, it\u2019s an addiction and so we wanna hear it so bad somebody says o&#8212;k\u2014ay and it very easy and say YES woohoo \u2026. You know there\u2019s incongruence and o&#8212;k\u2014ay means, look \u201cI\u2019ve got some real problems with this.\u201d So it\u2019s how do you hear it, how do you dig into it so you don\u2019t end up in a train wreck or somebody losing their job or deal going bad.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>JR: \u201cAnd speaking of which the interesting process I forget which chapter it was but you were talking about sometimes missing those clues and how important and valuable they can be and I one of the chapters you mentioned there were certain clues, there were hidden clues and I think this eludes to the name of your group and company\u00a0 coz they are referred to I believe as The Black Swans of their conversation, cues that are visible or you can see like , o&#8212;k\u2014ay, should have picked up on that one but then there\u2019s hidden things\u00a0 in every negotiation, little facts and details and information and things that you did uncover changes the whole picture and if I remember right this was one of the stories if you won\u2019t mind sharing, the gentleman who the Black Swans were something he had said no one parlayed, or no one had shared which landed up him stating that there was a certain time that he believe that he was going to leave this earth and no one heard that until afterwards and then it was like, holy smoke if we would have known that we knew he was already wanting to die &#8211; like and that was the Black Swan in that moment it was kinda hidden in the conversation or hidden from everyone knowing. So the value of purposely taking time to dig for the unknown what you said is expect the fact that there is unknown factors always.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>CV: \u201cYeah and not gonna be gold mines, these nuggets are no small things I mean they are pieces of information and that if you get the other to tell you would change everything.\u00a0 And they\u2019re always there because, it\u2019s kinda of a two-step mind warp thing here, but were always hiding stuff in negotiations. There\u2019s always stuff that we\u2019re not revealing on the other side so what does that tell us.\u00a0 That tells us first, stuff not revealing is important otherwise we\u2019ll reveal it.\u00a0 If we feel that they could gain all sorts of leverage on us we\u2019d be vulnerable, then it also means we could trust them more but that we could make a better deal.\u00a0 So by definition, if we got those the other side\u2019s got them.\u00a0 Now the hard part of wrap your mind around is, you know in the modern word of Donald Rumsfeld, \u201cThere are unknown unknowns.\u201d\u00a0 what happens when hidden cards on both side is begin to overlap it\u2019s you know I\u2019d like to imagine it\u2019s like playing Texas Holdem what would, happen if instead of taking the cards on the table that everybody gets to use, you got to see the other guy\u2019s cards and together you can make up your best hand, that\u2019s what you\u2019re trying for here.\u00a0\u00a0 But we\u2019re scared to reveal this stuff. There are other reasons why being able to tell when somebody\u2019s lying is not good enough because people only lie about stuff which they think is important and half of their Black Swans they don\u2019t even know what\u2019s important.\u00a0 And I was here in town and leaving in Los Angeles when I get the chance to maybe talk to the Hollywood types so I\u2019m coaching a woman filmmaker recently she\u2019s gotta investor and wants to buy into this film and invested in so this person cannot just be in the film but can play both primary roles. I think this person probably saw The Social Network the movie about Facebook and there was an actor that played the Winklevoss twins, the guy played both parts so this investor wants that and the film maker\u2019s telling me , that\u2019s gonna double our budget I mean even if I wanted to\u00a0 do that, the CGI, the cameras and everything else, it\u2019s gonna be crazy, I can\u2019t do it. \u201cAlright so go back into the conversation and just open up the conversation and talk in the middle of conversation, the investor says \u201cI wanna get this castle in France we can film in\u201d .. oh what wait, woah\u2026 there\u2019s a Black Swan, but nobody know if it\u2019s there\u2026 or you know think based on the initial conversation, this person\u2019s ego-driven and gonna destroy my budget and what they want. Well you know maybe they\u2019re scared to let you know that they\u2019ve got something to bring into the table. It\u2019s gonna change everything, maybe they think you\u2019re gonna take advantage of them if you got to know that so diving in, people always find crazy things by getting into the conversations.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>JR: \u201cI\u2019ll give you a specific example that happen to me that really truly represents this and it\u2019s something I wasn\u2019t thinking of which it happened both ways, where we had a group reach out and it was interesting cause the fee they offered to hire us to speak was really small significantly smaller than what we would normally accept or ask for and I think they knew what our numbers were and just completely underbid it and I was like wow\u2026 but it also sparked my curiosity of why in the world would they offer that? Like that\u2019s really small and I was scratching my head and I was like I call them and okay, what\u2019s going on? We want to fly you to New York we want you to do an initial recording of your training and we\u2019re gonna record it here in our studio, we\u2019ll edit it, we\u2019ll put it together and then we\u2019re gonna do a digital broadcast out to probably 500 companies and as long as it\u2019s liked we\u2019ll do it like to another 10,000 companies and you know part of the training and we offer a couple of thousand dollars afterward.\u00a0 I was like, wow, we charged significantly higher than that and to do training for that many companies like we\u2019re losing a lot of revenues by giving it all away to these companies and that was my initial thought, and I went to my Dad and I talked to him about it cause he\u2019s been in this business for years , we\u2019re talking back and forth so what are your thoughts? And he said, wait a minute, you never asked what is the important question and I said what? And he said, what companies are these going to? I don\u2019t know\u2026 so I went back and asked and they said, L\u2019oreal, Goldman Sachs, Price Water Cooper House, the biggest companies on earth and how long did it take them to build that relationship and they said they\u2019ve been doing training with these companies for over\u00a0 40 years.\u00a0 And he said how long will it take you to build that kind of relationship with these companies that they\u2019re willing to put you directly inside these companies with your best stuff on showcase, how long will it take you to get into the door of all those places, and he said how many if it goes well? I said 10,000, he said buddy I don\u2019t think you could pay for that kind of advertisement and I started laughing.\u00a0 And so the Black Swan was something I just didn\u2019t even asked in that case who was going to because that was invaluable of like, Wow I didn\u2019t realize that because it didn\u2019t seem important to me at that time.\u00a0 My thought was I was losing revenue because they\u2019re giving away our training to all these companies and in reverse it was actually helping us open a relationship with lots of companies that we had zero contact with before that and so this thought process of being able to dig around even if the information is sometimes at hand to you cause they handed that to me I just didn\u2019t know what to do with it because that wasn\u2019t very seasoned at that time and that field I went oh this is what to ask about that or this is how to do it and I think sometimes in looking for that Black Swan like you said something in the book were you always negotiate in teams. Which is having someone else to give you another perspective on what\u2019s going on in case you can\u2019t see it yourself, which in that case I couldn\u2019t see what\u2019s going on cause I don\u2019t know what to look for.\u00a0 But luckily I have someone more seasoned from the team who knew what to look for and always on BINGO, there was the gold that we didn\u2019t realize was sitting there the whole time.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>CV: \u201cWe\u2019ll here\u2019s what else I really like about you telling me the story because you didn\u2019t take yourself hostage in any way along the way. I mean, you\u2019re curious your willing to find out, I mean of course your initial reaction was oh God you know that\u2019s too low, I\u2019m not gonna talk to these people or if I talk to them I\u2019m vulnerable. I mean you still dig it in and one of the things we teach on a regular basis is you know don\u2019t take yourself hostage by not willing to continue to talk or you know if they can\u2019t make you say yes then you shouldn\u2019t be afraid to talk to anybody regardless of what your perception is about the process and so you know you didn\u2019t take yourself hostage anywhere along the line there as you pursue which I think is really cool about the way that you handle that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>JR: \u201cWell that you, I think there\u2019s something else I learned in the book that was really important too which was the example you said when you were teaching a class and you said okay, you give student A $10, and you tell them to make a deal with student B and you said GO, you both have to agree on it and you have to get the most you can out of this deal and you let them negotiate with each other and you were saying the different options of what happens there and so often, up here in our head, we start fighting for fair versus the reality.&#8221;<\/p>\n<p>CV: \u201cAhh the F word\u201d<\/p>\n<p>JR: &#8220;Yeah\u00a0 the F word, and that becomes a dangerous word because that\u2019s an emotional pull in reaction into a situation and we lose our logical ability to understand what\u2019s actually unfolding cause I think if I remember right you have people come back and say 5 and 5 or 6 and 4 and then people get pissed because it\u2019s not fair and say, no I\u2019m not accepting 4 you get 6, no I\u2019m not accepting 5 even though it\u2019s split , I want more than that, and you get these emotional reactions and I think one thing that\u2019s interestingly you pointed out is that the deal that everyone should make is not $9 and $1 because in reality that\u2019s the best deal the person with 10 bucks can get unless he keeps it all or she keeps it all. But then that fairness, that F word that sneaks in there gets people, would you mind sharing a bit about that?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>CV:\u00a0 \u201cYeah you know once we start looking for it and I say we because I\u2019ve got a team that I work with and I\u2019ve got people that I\u2019ve worked with that really contributed to the ideas.\u00a0 My son Brandon is probably an uncredited co-author of the book, he\u2019s been so involved in helping develop the book since I left the FBI.\u00a0 So when we first, like fair man try and pick a negotiation that the word fair doesn\u2019t come up. Probably impossible to have a conversation and it\u2019s used both by the very manipulative types because they know how effective it is and is also use when people getting defensive and so that\u2019s why we call it the F-bomb, because you throw the word fair out there like I just want what\u2019s fair. And you\u2019ve immediately accused you of being unfair and it would move them when it shouldn\u2019t move, would have make them question themselves when they probably shouldn\u2019t question themselves or they\u2019d walk away from the deal they would have otherwise make them better off cause they didn\u2019t think it was fair.\u00a0 And plenty of people I\u2019m not getting what I\u2019m worth here when take away the other side\u2019s compensation and they would have thought it was a great deal. We tried to get into, I did some training for the\u00a0 National Hostage Negotiation team and then the training was over the relationship with the general contractor that brought us in fell apart we tried to get back in. There\u2019s theoretically an $8 Million dollar contract potentially. I\u2019m talking to a guy trying to get the introduction and he said \u201cWhat\u2019s my finder\u2019s fee ?\u00a0 If I make this introduction I make this deal, and I said you know finder\u2019s fee 10% is fair and I hadn\u2019t really thought about it and said $800,000 would change my family\u2019s life and I thought for myself at that moment he\u2019s gonna make an introduction, maybe we\u2019ll go to dinner if it works out he gets $800,000 for that dinner.\u00a0 That\u2019s not fair (laughs) and we initially turned down that deal and afterwards I was thinking like that\u2019s left over here was lots of money, you know how, what do I care how much he gets as long I get my end and I almost walk away from that from trying to make that deal we went back and said look, you got it , you get us this deal you got it.\u00a0 It ends up not working out but I taken myself hostage over this fairness thing and it\u2019s everywhere, I mean I can change compensation on any deal\u00a0 I know it\u2019s fair or unfair it\u2019s gonna change every body\u2019s perspective which is the most, almost insidious how often it comes up how much people change their minds.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>JR: \u201cIt\u2019s wild, I had that happen to me where I did a year of contract training with a company and then a few years later someone else who\u2019s also on a training team got paid a radically different amount and all of a sudden a year of contract that seem one of my favorite things I did that year turned into something I was pissed about because I found out that was unfair how we were compensated.\u00a0 It\u2019s wild how that emotion messes with you, so here\u2019s a big question, how do people go about staying out of the F-bomb, the fairness thought process around this?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>CV:\u00a0 \u201cWell that\u2019s one of the hardest things to do and a little bit of thinking through this is advanced and inoculating yourself. And also understanding how sometimes people can mess around with you, \u201c Like it wasn\u2019t fair, you know your share that wasn\u2019t fair that they got\u2026\u201d. The classic question I\u2019d like to ask people is if you were taught how to expand the size of a pie, would you take a smaller portion? And most people were like no..no, I\u2019m gonna expand the pie and I\u2019m gonna take the less result?\u00a0 The great example I\u2019d like to use a lot of times is the last lockout\u2026the players they put all these money on the owner\u2019s pocket and they got the smaller percentage of the pie, that wasn\u2019t fair, well they are doin\u2019 pretty damn good as a result.<\/p>\n<p>JR: \u201cThat\u2019s a 100 million dollar contract in a bad small slice of the pie.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>CV: &#8220;Yeah, they are making much more money and you know my book is another example , you know I pulled a team together to bring together this book my co-writer Tahl Raz the people I collaborated with they did a very great job and I ended up with the smaller portion of the total pie from the book proceeds but my smaller portion is significantly larger than a lot of other authors 100% of the pie. So I expanded the pie enough so that my percentage is more take home dollars for me and it\u2019s a much better product as well so it\u2019s a hard thing to do but again it\u2019s not about taking yourself as a hostage.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>JR: &#8220;Smart, and I think what you just said there is brilliant especially for small business owners the concept of if you can expand it enough if you can strengthen the quality of your product or service if you can strengthen the reach the amount of people you\u2019re gonna get to. If you can add something by splitting it with someone gonna add so much value to what you\u2019re doing that everything expands even your piece, is still worth more as a whole than if you would have kept the whole thing yourself and not expand it and not better the product and not better the service. I think that\u2019s really important for people especially towards the beginning because we have this very weird mindset of like oh my gosh if I split half I\u2019m left with barely anything.\u00a0 Instead of thinking if I split half and we make it this much better that\u2019s better than I would have done on my own.\u00a0 That little distinction is really important for all entrepreneurs, but especially the beginning stages.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>CV: \u201cYeah and a lot of reasons\u00a0 we got concerned about those pieces we\u2019re scared to control there\u2019s another issue of speed, how fast will you get things done\u00a0 \u00a0suddenly were working by committee, there\u2019s a phrase I heard not too long ago, you wanna go fast go alone, if you wanna go far go as a group, yeah you go fast but you don\u2019t go far and you go far with the team.\u00a0 Teamwork seems inefficient in short-term but in the long-term you get wealthy as a team, right?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>JR: I like that, I like that, so a couple of questions, thank you for spending your time with us, and a couple of questions, if people want to go and grab a copy of this book, where do they go? Where is the best place? Is it amazon or do you have a site?<\/p>\n<p>CV: Amazon, you know it gives you the best price I gotta admit, you know I buy a lot of stuff on Amazon and I even get my best price if I buy copies of the book when I\u2019m buying form amazon.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>JR: \u201cSame here, so go to amazon, look up \u201c<strong><a href=\"http:\/\/amzn.to\/2qSzYUp\">Chris Voss, Never Split the Difference<\/a>\u201d<\/strong> and if you\u2019re watching the video is that yellow and red book sitting on\u00a0 right behind him on 2 different languages up there, if you\u2019re listening, it\u2019s a yellow on top and red at the bottom book just so you know you got the right one and then also for people who own a company or people who might be making a major negotiation on their life or business how do they get hold of you and your group and team to maybe help them out if they want to hire you guys for a service of bring you in for a training for their team , where will they go for that?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>CV:\u00a0 \u201cThe simplest way is we got a weekly negotiation news letter, and for people that are in the United States if you send a text number to 22828 and the text is THATS RIGHT\u00a0 &#8211; T-H-A-T-S-R-I-G-H-T. No apostrophe, no spaces as if it\u2019s all one word. That\u2019ll give you the opportunity to sign up for the newsletter quick and easy comes out once a week and also we got a lot of training resources newsletter\u2019s free that keeps you up on our different training events we\u2019re gonna be in Los Angeles to a couple of days for a one day training event that\u2019ll keep you to a lot of information about us, that\u2019s the simplest quickest way is send that text THATSRIGHT no punctuation no spaces to 22828 .\u00a0 If you\u2019re not in the US, the website is www.blackswanltd.com and you get a lot of same resources there.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>JR: \u201cVery cool so either they send that text or go to www.blackswantld.com if you\u2019re listening to this look into show notes, if you\u2019re on our blog, look below this video if you\u2019re on Facebook or YouTube look below to see the link to take you right on over there and also the information about texting and thank you thank you thank you.\u00a0 I guess the last question I\u2019d leave is I\u2019m always curious, I just on a personal note what\u2019s the message that you most want to leave with everyone who\u2019s gonna watch this everyone who\u2019s gonna listen, everyone who\u2019s gonna tune in, what\u2019s that core message that you really wanna ripple out that you hope they really get after watching all these and connecting with you here?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>CV:\u00a0 \u201cGreat negotiations is about great long-term relationship, it\u2019s not about I win you lose, If you and I win and you lose guy, that\u2019s lose long term strategy. You know we don\u2019t beat other people in all our deals.\u00a0 We beat the problem, we beat the situation.\u00a0 You negotiate with me I\u2019m not negotiating to your expense, I wanna make a great deal with you and wish everybody had that attitude you know we win together, we win by collaborating and it\u2019s not something we gotta hurt the other guy we gotta beat him. So great negotiations is great collaboration and it gives you a better life.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>JR: \u201cI like that, well again sir, thank you thank you for joining us here, thank you everyone for tuning in and checking out another episode, we\u2019ll see you next week for another episode of JRCtv. \u00a0Remember if you wanna grab a copy of Chris\u2019 book you wanna go to amazon look up \u201c<strong><a href=\"http:\/\/amzn.to\/2qSzYUp\">Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss<\/a><\/strong>\u201d also you can visit blackswanltd.com for bringing them out to your business to do some training on negotiation or some training or just for more information on learning from their newsletter make sure to visit there and check that out, and Chris Thank you one more time for joining us.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>CV: My pleasure, I\u2019m really honored to be on your show<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>&nbsp; Hello! 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